How To Heal Society Through Compassionate Conversations

Keith & Rodney Interview

Brandon Stover: [00:00:00] Hey, you welcome to evolve the show to help you become a hero and solve the world's greatest challenges. I'm your host, Brandon Stover. And I interview social innovators and entrepreneurs and thinkers about the global problems we face and the solutions they have created to solve them. Now today's guests are Rodney Campbell and Keith Richardson.

Who are deeply introspective and have an astonishing ability to get others to open up about difficult topics like race politics, mental health, child abuse, parenting, and so much more. Rodney and Keith are going to help us learn about the divide between people and a loss of human connection and their solution more in common, a podcast consultancy and a movement, Which is driving productive human connection by anchoring humanity in compassionate conversation. Now stay tuned till the end of the episode, when they're going to reveal how they create space to open up about these tough issues and how after some 15 years of building successful careers in technology, they've begun their journey of building a social enterprise anchored on their podcast.

Now let's hear from Rodney and Keith about their mission to solve the world's challenge of human connection.

Rodney Campbell: [00:01:02] yeah, so our mission with more common is to anchor humanity and compassionate conversation. Even more simply put it's to help people have what we have. Keith and I have been friends for 19 years best friends since pretty much day one like big down from day one. And that has allowed us to have completely different views on, on topics.

And it not really be an issue. I mean, there was an issue cause like we just didn't agree, but a lot of people don't have that in their lives. They don't, they've never experienced that. And we want people to be able to have that. We want to teach people how to access compassion, and we believe that compassion.

Well, hell the world

Brandon Stover: [00:01:39] Yeah. I think whether it's, you know, we're talking about democracy or bridging racial lines, creating deep relationships with a loved one, or like having a healthy company culture, any of those areas, I think compassionate conversations lie at the core of these issues. Can you guys kind of expand on, you know, how this kind of is a, I believe like meta skill, a skill that helps with building all of these other areas.

Keith Richardson: [00:02:04] I think the ability to converse we'll start there to be able to connect with another person. It is the only thing we have, right. It is the only way we draw human relationships. It is the only way that we build beyond ourselves. Whether that's communication via our hands in sign language, whether it's written word, whether it's you know, spoken word and at the end of the day, our ability to do that peacefully it to do it where we are seeking to not just share what we think, but to understand the other person, to understand how they think about what we think and be able to not just sit at a point in time, but move that conversation forward. It's the only way we survive together. And so compassion in of itself is that right? It is the expression of that. It is the receiving of that, and it is the ability for us to. have a discussion that ultimately moves relationship forward, not idea. And that relationship fortifies us as individuals and it fortifies us as a collective. And so us doing that in my opinion is the only way that we collectively

get better.

Brandon Stover: [00:03:44] Hmm, Ronnie. Did you want to add.

Rodney Campbell: [00:03:45] Yeah. I think the other piece, so that's the external, like Keith said, like beyond ourselves and then there's the, the internal piece that the compassion can be applied to oneself. I can give myself compassion and often, I mean, we, we do it in spurts. We don't necessarily always do it intentionally. You know, I think there's this wonderful quote I heard that says we don't see the world as it is.

We see the world as we are.

And

when you are able to give yourself compassion and, and start with that it becomes a little bit easier to give other people compassion and to see the world just a little differently. And yeah, like he said, I think that's the starting point. It's, it's a foundational skill.

You know, we have points where we do it, like with people we really love when people, we really like, you know, you could say, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll make excuses for them. We'll rationalize for them. We'll, we'll allow things that we wouldn't allow from anybody else. Sometimes it's compassion and sometimes it's just missing.

But there's this, this idea of like, well, we can do that for everyone. We can do it for people we don't like. And it doesn't mean that we then change the frame of liking them or not. That's not, that's not actually an important metric really at the end of the day.

Brandon Stover: [00:05:06] Can you guys explain why currently most people aren't having compassionate conversations or you know why we are able, or haven't learned the ability to.

Keith Richardson: [00:05:15] there is a. And my, and my assessment to an evolutionary component to this. And I don't mean over longterm Darwinian evolution, but I mean the short term to 10,000 years of, of organized civilization, there's this argument that is made by some sociologists that the downfall of humanity in its positive form happened when agriculture occurred for the first time.

So our ability to no longer go from a million plus years of gaining resources for immediate consumption. So if you think about hunter gatherer civilization, which was, is far longer of a period of human existence than, than organized societal civilization People would hunt and then they would eat why?

Well, they can't freeze it. They don't have a mechanism to do that. You co you gather your vegetables to eat that evening. So there was a, a sequence of social expectation that people worked to consume and then play. Well, what happens when we then go into an agricultural space, which I actually find the theory.

Interesting. So I'm positing as if it is true. But it is, it is that of a, it is, is a conclusion drawn, not by every sociologist, but when you start to collect. Everything. And now you can store it. What ends up happening is power dynamics and hierarchies takeover, and not just the normal human hierarchies that actually play benefit to a collective group where the people at the top are those that everybody agrees should be at the top.

People at the top then are people who seek at the top because they want more resources for themselves. So you fast forward and you have people who have taken advantage of that and then spread their seed. So there's a genetic component that makes it more prevalent. And then you add in things like technology and social media and where I see it today.

What is interesting is one technology. Takes us away from going back to your question specifically about compassionate conversation takes us away from practicing, sitting across the table from somebody and having them challenge you. Because what happens in that situation is different hormones are released, right?

Different stressors are created versus reading words, and then writing them back, right? It's totally different. Social dynamic. You don't experience shame, you don't experience guilt. You don't experience these things that create a necessary dynamic for positive, compassionate conversation. So we don't practice it.

We, we, we actually practice the opposite. And then you add in the fact that we all seek acceptance because we are a social animal. So we seek it. And in today's society, we have the ability to see. From an echo chamber. I use Q Anon as an example, a lot. When you hear people who have been interviewed from Q Anon, sure.

They have these beliefs about this thing, but it's this beliefs about these things that connect them to these there's millions of people who also believe it. And the one thing that's consistent that you hear is I've built relationships that I never thought I would have in life. Right. So I can now. Go become a Q Anon supporter and have validation and acceptance.

That's only going to fortify my thinking. So I then to have a conversation with somebody that doesn't believe that I actually don't need to do that anymore. So therefore I there's there's that, that compassionate conversation, when you're talking to people who are very in your thought process is just less necessary for you as an individual, because you are gaining what you already need through human connection through your echo chamber.

So I think there's a lot of that and this, this history of time that has created enemies and us versus them thinking and has created a lot of what we see in today's discourse.

Brandon Stover: [00:09:54] Yeah, I think you know, any problem is embedded within a complex system and there's never one cause and never one you know, effect that it's having on other things. And Rodney, you mentioned, you know, the internal aspect of a compassionate conversation, having that with yourself where. Does the depression and loneliness epidemic that's happening?

How does compassionate conversations play a role with that internal aspect? And then, you know, speaking to that, one of connection that Keith was bringing up.

Rodney Campbell: [00:10:26] I mean, even with what Keith just said to the previous answer, I, I w I would even potentially simplify it into like the PA the element of pain or the aspect of pain. It's painful to have an agreement or disagreement with somebody when to have a view that I hold. Even one, I don't hold like yesterday. I was listening to something and my wife made a factual comment about the thing I was listening to.

And I was like, what, why would you? And I go, like, what? And I thought about it for a few minutes. It's like, oh, thank you for the information. Like, she just gave me information and I got offended by it. I was bothered. It's painful to have an idea that I hold or think I hold, or I've been told I should hold challenged.

It's it's actually painful for me just to be challenged, even like to perceive a challenge back to that. It's, it's how I see it when it comes to depression and loneliness. I mean, I think it's a big deal. I I've never been diagnosed as depressed. I think I've had periods where I've been very down and one thing that I realized through this work on through this work in compassionate and giving it to myself, like I, I can actually be a lot of what I need to heal myself.

I can provide the confirmation or the affirmation or the comfort, whether it's physical by putting my hands on my chest to, to support myself in a moment where I feel stress or I feel I'm not safe to, to tell myself that I'm actually safe to be compassionate to myself instead of waiting for someone else to do it for me.

You know, I think there's a lot of there's a, there's not a lot of incentive right now to explore compassion, not a lot of social incentive. It doesn't at least not a perceived incentive to and I like this question a lot because I think the real incentive is like, if you can, if, if you can re yourself without a foundation of compassion, you can strengthen the walls against things like that loneliness, that depression. Cause then it's not necessarily seeking so much, like you can be your own source and then you can seek from a place of curiosity from a place of just genuine interests versus a place of needing and searching for.

Keith Richardson: [00:12:50] If it's okay, there's a, I want to add to that because there is, I'll be the clinical one here. There is a,

there is a component of this depression and anxiety epidemic that is very much rooted and everything previously stated specifically in this Western control and hold mentality that. With compassion, I'll start there. It has been shown to activate our parasympathetic nervous, nervous system and our Vegas nerve, which ultimately frees us up.

Biologically it frees up our frontal cortex and it frees up our creative thinking. We actually are in a place of peace when we find our way to compassionate emotions or compassionate thoughts. What we learn is through fear. We talk about the negative emotions a lot, right? We talked about anger. We talked about fear.

We talked. Stress and how do we mitigate and relieve those things? And the reason those things are so prevalent is because we are so focused on consuming and holding as much as we can for whatever purpose, whether it's retirement or whether it's having more than the other guy or whatever the case. Well, when we're in that state, we activate our sympathetic nervous system, which essentially is activating our fight flight or freeze, right.

Fon or flow if you really want to expand it. And when we activate that part where removing blood from our core central nervous system, and we're pushing it off to the extremities, our digestion gets worse because our body is in this space of needing to from an evolutionary standpoint, fight or flee. So I need my resources, my physical resources to go to.

What's going to give me the maximum potential chance of survival. So, what I'm not doing is thinking creatively, my frontal cortex is completely or mostly shut down. And so I'm in this constant state of tension and so if we can find a place to write about doing some of the things where we have compassion for ourselves, and we're really just activating a compassionate and emotion for us or for others, we're actually going to free up access to our parasympathetic nervous system.

That's going to biologically and physically make us feel better, which will free us up to do more things. Even if we're still doing

a lot of stuff.

Brandon Stover: [00:15:29] Yeah, I think in our current Western society, I can speak to my own journey. I want to generalize here, you know, being on a path of chasing as much resources as you can get being in that survival mode. You lose your sense of self and that self-awareness, that is required in order to have a compassionate conversation.

You know, as you were mentioning Rodney, about being able to have compassion with yourself, you know, on my own journey, I had to start realizing and being self-aware of my own wants and needs and desires. And oftentimes before, when I was just chasing these resources, trying to get as much as I can I wasn't actually tuning into what those were.

And so it was very hard for me to listen to somebody else and actually hear what theirs are, because I don't even know my own. And then when I'm also trying to create a solution with somebody, how am I going to be able to say what I need on my end, if I don't even know that for myself? So I think there's a.

Level of awareness that because we are so wrapped up in a rat race or we're on social media or whatever, we're just numbing ourselves from it's hard to have those actual conversations.

Rodney Campbell: [00:16:42] Yeah. And

it's what is it clear as kind like being able to, to understand those things about yourself? Let you let you be clear with everybody else about what the terms of engagement are, what the needs are, what the wants are like. It's okay to have a one. It might be irrelevant to the thing that you're trying to accomplish, but it's okay to have it, but not being able to state it does set you back and that hurts personal relationships.

It hurts teams trying to get projects accomplished or it's companies. And that's why we think it's so foundational to, to build from from the. From that place from a place of compassion. And I wanted to add you know, I think so much of just what I felt in the past and what I, what I'm seeing now, or what I think I'm hearing is in the world.

There's just, it almost feels like constant attacks. Scarcity, Keith alluded to scarcity, like everybody's feeling it on just a whole new level in a pandemic where we, we had shortages, we have shortages on things that we never thought we would have shortages on. So people are feeling constantly like they're in that fight flight mode, they can't get the rest digest.

So that absolutely spurs the suicide problem that's happening with teens and young adults right now. Depressive, thoughts, law. I mean, loneliness. There are people who just are afraid to go out because. They're at risk or they might be at risk. They don't know. It's a microscopic thing. We can't see a virus.

Can't see, COVID we don't and what's this, this new says this and this new says that what's what is real. And so I think there was this beautiful Facebook post,  I just want to read a piece of it because I think it's important. I think this is a piece of compassion. It said I truly believe that it's important for. For our leaders to see us as vulnerable sharing something I found on Facebook, I wanted to share, relates to inclusion as governors are trying to figure out how to ease back into a new normal.

Please remember some people don't agree with the state opening that's okay. Because some people are still planning to stay at home. That's okay. Be kind, some people are scared of getting a virus in the second wave happening. That's okay. Because some are sighing with relief to go back to work, knowing that they may not lose their business, their homes.

That's okay. Be kind. And then there's probably like six other things. It's just like, there's so many ways to look at this at the end of the day, whether you agree with somebody or not, you can be.

Brandon Stover: [00:19:11] Yeah. This kind of leads us into what is a compassionate conversation and specifically, how does that feel on for both participants when this conversation is.

Rodney Campbell: [00:19:23] Conversation as open, honest, insightful on it, I think often a compassionate conversation feels very uncomfortable for me

because it is getting too, I mean, for, for me, like I was raised in the Midwest and it was kind of like a get along, get along to get along kind of scenario. Like, what I was taught was like social niceties. And like, you don't disagree and this, you just don't like, you just get along. And so for me, it's actually having a conversation and being in a space, like actually being in a space and.

Saying the back to where we're just talking about what I need, this is what I need out of this, and then asking somebody else what they need and being able to hear that, like it's even now, like it's still a process for me and it can be very uncomfortable. Breathing is so important for me to get through it.

What's it feel like for Yuki there? W w

Keith Richardson: [00:20:20] yeah, I mean, I would say a compassionate conversation is one where there's a free exchange of ideas between two people and it's judgment free, or at least feels judgment free right now. Your kids it's one of those. Oh, I judge that, but I'm going to control my expression of judgment.

What a compassionate, one of my favorite examples of a non-compassionate conversation that we all go through. Hey, have you seen a godfather? No, I've never done what? You've never seen it, right? Like there is no longer worthy human. the thing. It's a, it's a benign and banal topic, but at the same time, it's the sense of, yeah.

So what I haven't seen it, whereas a compassionate conversation would be, Hey, have you seen godfather? No. Oh, it's a really good movie. A lot of people like it, I would recommend you check it out. Right? And it's, it's an exchange of ideas between two people who don't look at each other as the idea, but look at each other as the people that they are, and we're not in a space of judgment so then a free exchange of ideas can be had because people are more open and honest. I know I can now say hypothetically speaking, I don't support the vaccine. Right. And not feel judged by you. And we can have an open, honest conversation about it. As soon as that judgment gets triggered, that conversation has to be managed rather than had. And I think that it's fine. It's hard, especially now where we are taught to debate, like that's the example. I don't support vaccines. What, let me tell you why you should

Rodney Campbell: [00:22:18] wait, are we taught to just spew our opinions?

Keith Richardson: [00:22:20] Right. So that's not a debate. That's not a conversation. That's just one sided,

an ego fight.

Rodney Campbell: [00:22:27] Well, and then take your example. I love the movie example, cause this is one that I've, this is, I grew up doing what you haven't seen star wars, like, huh? What's wrong with like, right. Yeah. But I, I, it was a part of who I thought I was so take this to the inner conversation of compassion. Super uncomfortable.

Like there came a point where I was like, but he's my best friend. And I'm questioning his validity as a human, or like, I'm like his personality because he hasn't seen a movie I've seen. And, and this is a conversation I'm having with myself to say like, why, why do I actually think that in viewing this movie and liking it or not liking it because I like.

Has anything to do with his character. And that was a really, really hard conversation because I was, I had a really deep attachment to movies, which I had to evaluate and start asking my questions. Like, why do I, I didn't write it. I didn't, you know, I didn't make the movie. I didn't pay for the movie. Why do I care so much?

What other people think about this movie? What does that do for me? And that was a very difficult and hard conversation. I can laugh at it now, but I was not laughing when I had this conversation with myself.

Brandon Stover: [00:23:36] Yeah, I laugh about this because this is actually something that's I've done with my wife several times. I've watched a ton of movies growing up and her parents, there was like certain movies that she didn't watch growing up and whatnot. And so there'll be this because with movies come so much culture.

And so there'll be this like cultural moment we're talking about. And I'm like, oh, it's like in that movie, dah, dah, dah. And she was like, I've never seen it. And I'm like, what do you mean? You've never seen this movie. Like, this is a cultural hit, like you're missing so much right now. So I've definitely been in that position, but it also, like when I stopped for a second, you know, talking about this example, it also helps me to understand her more like, okay, now I start thinking about how she grew up.

She probably didn't. Wasn't. You know, showcased this type of movie or this type of culture. And so now we can start having a discussion about it and we can see both sides, perspectives, like, okay, what was it like not being a part of this culture and what was it like being a part of this culture and seeing how that shaped us as people.

Keith Richardson: [00:24:32] There's this funny thing that happens. My wife and I, we talk about this a lot because we're huge football fans. There are 320 million people in the United States. The number one most viewed sporting event in the United States is the super bowl. And on average, it gets about 120 to 150 million people viewing it.

That means more than half of our population children included in that number. Don't watch the super. Right. But when you're surrounded, like that's a lot of people that do, so all of a sudden you run into somebody and it's like, Hey, it's you see the game last night? And they're like, oh no, I don't, I don't watch the super bowl.

It's almost like it's an attack on your cultural identity on your personal identity, that how dare you exist. Right. And what compassion looks like is I love the way you put that brand in, like, let me understand what it's like to not watch football. Right. Like, what is it like, what do you do on Superbowl Sunday?

Right. I've been doing one thing every super bowl Sunday for 30 years. Right? Like what do you do on Superbowl Sunday? So I think that's a, it's a, it's a great, simple example. I think we can all digest.

Rodney Campbell: [00:25:50] I just, another super small kind of stupid benign example. Fanny packs. I don't understand any facts.

I was around. I was around when they first were a thing in the nineties and I think I had one then, but then I mainly just made fun of my dad cause he wore it and I was like, mm, I don't think this is for you dad. And they, but they've come back in a big way. They're super stylish. And I'm just like, I just, the other day I was with my wife and I found myself judging the hell out of this dude, like out loud to her.

I'm like, and then I was like, you know what F it I'm buying a Fanny pack. Like I got to figure out like, maybe I'm missing something. I don't know. Like everybody's wearing them. Ma maybe, maybe it would be a more efficient way to carry stuff. So I'm waiting. I'm still waiting for mine to get here. But as you get the bag I got, I did not, I got a little Fanny, but I gotta, I got a different, different pack than yours.

Okay. I think this is kind of like the evolution of where like my own self-talk or management of this conversation. Cause Keith hits on it, like judgment is such a big piece. Cause like when you don't judge her for not having seen the movie, you can see that she had a different experience. And then this is where our experiences get to grow.

Like we, we get to experience our diversity because we can include it when we're not judging the hell out of it. And that's kind of, kind of the that's the secret sauce. That's the power,

Brandon Stover: [00:27:15] Yeah. So in your guys is a consultancy. You do something called the Maura approach, which really helps bring some elements into what a compassionate conversation is. So could you guys outline what each of those elements are?

Keith Richardson: [00:27:28] and just to give some context, like we have built this approach based on our personal experience based on reading a lot of information on conversation on compassion, and really just trying to find a through line that shows, wait a second. These are some of the most core things that these people all do, that they expand into 10, 12, 25 different tips, which are great tips and love them all, but we can't digest those.

And we can't digest it when we're triggered. In a moment where our sympathetic nervous system is activated. And how am I supposed to remember 25 different tips unless I practice it 24 hours a day, which most people don't do. So with that context, I'll stop talking. So my answer is not so long and let Rodney highlight what, what

Rodney Campbell: [00:28:16] they are more and meet people where they are.

Oh, be open to listen more in the more, as important than that  are remove assumption  E embrace and engage with curiosity.  So it's the more approach the first three. So it's interesting, like the way I don't think we plan this, but the way we've been having this conversation, that's kind of like the external and internal, it keeps been kind of handling the external and I've been having the internal, the first three parts of that.

It's very fitting

Keith Richardson: [00:28:47] for our personalities. It is

Rodney Campbell: [00:28:51] meeting people where they are being open with some more removing assumption are very much about me in my inner world and how I'm showing up when we sit across from each other. And then the expression of that, that what we would call the healthy expression of that be compassionate and expression of that would be engaging and embracing with curiosity.

So it's kind of this nice flow into like, how do I examine how I, how I start to show up in conversations and to, and, and doing that. And then embracing curiosity. Okay. Really having a deep curiosity for the person that's sitting across from you, the people sitting across from you, which creates safety, great psychological safety.

And it allows for a chance for us to cohabitate a space inclusively, like genuinely inclusively, not just being like you're here, it's like, no, you're here and you get to talk you're here and you get to be heard, I guess is actually even more important than talking. And, and you get to know that you're heard.

Brandon Stover: [00:29:53] One of the things that I think is so important about this approach is as you mentioned, like the first three steps are about regulating yourself before you come into the conversation. Many people just come into a conversation and then directly the thought goes from their mind out their mouth.

And there was not much preparation between those two points and they don't allow them self the space to realize what they're saying or to realize how is that going to impact the other person?

Rodney Campbell: [00:30:21] There's another tip that I think we should add to our training. Keith is the pause. Brandon is a very, like, you're just, you're super. I say this every time we talk, like you're wicked thoughtful, like in a, in a super good way.

Brandon Stover: [00:30:34] Well, I appreciate that.

Rodney Campbell: [00:30:35] in a good way. Wicked. Yeah. up, Brad, how do you like those apples?

Talking about like incentives and, and, and penalties. It's almost like in many parts of. At least cultures that I've been a part of, whether it's been organizations or teams if you don't speak up, if you don't speak loudly and if you don't speak first, you get left out and we're not incented to pause.

So that whole chain you just mentioned from the, from the feeling emotion probably straight through, they may deliver straight out the mouth, like not even processing in the prefrontal cortex. Like we're not, we're not incented to stop for a second and think like, oh, do I even mean that? Like, do I even think that about this person that I actually really do like, and respect that a way that I would really want to respond to them?

So I think that's a thing. Just as I think even larger than our process, like how do we affect this in a worldwide global cultural stage? Like how do we incent people? Or how do we, how do we help people see that there are actually are incentives already built in, but then how do we start to build in structures that do incent people for positive.

Brandon Stover: [00:31:48] Why did you guys decide that starting a podcast would be one of the best ways to demonstrate these compassionate conversations?

Keith Richardson: [00:31:56] Honey. Actually I don't. So, so the, the, the short story on the podcast decision was Rodney, I can never remember. I think it was about September. Yeah, it might've been in August or July of 20 15, 20 16. He hits me up and I was in my office at the time and I'm just sitting and we were just chatting and he goes, dude, I really want to talk to you about starting a podcast.

And we used to talk about football all the time. And maybe we do something about football. I just went, he goes, I just know Rodney is an idea guy, but paint this picture. Rodney will try everything. Once, and it's always trying, always trying new things. And

Brandon Stover: [00:32:43] As evidenced by the Fanny pack experiment coming up.

Keith Richardson: [00:32:48] and I will, I am a late adopter of anything on the adoption curve of economics. I'm not going to be, I, I like to see that approves out or at least that I can see value in it. I just got a bag, not a it's a shoulder bag, European bag that because I didn't want a Fanny pack, but I wanted the value of having a purse.

Like women have it, like w why don't we all have

Rodney Campbell: [00:33:14] purses? So ahead of the curve, European men wearing them, like in the early two thousands.

Keith Richardson: [00:33:21] Why? But I'm a more, I'm more deliberate. And I don't just try new things all the time. So he comes to me with these ideas all the time. And so the podcast was just a thing I had never heard of podcasting before.

And. I go. Sure. Cool. Sounds good. And that ended up leading to why w why we ended up starting our podcasts, but the only reason we chose podcast was because it's an open platform, right. And that gave us an opportunity to demonstrate these conversations that we were having. We had no idea what it was going to be or what it was going to look like.

And podcasting was just a thing. Cause Rodney was listening to podcasts and said, we should start one because it's easier. And it's not like we have to go to a radio station and

Rodney Campbell: [00:34:04] syndicate, I laughed at the front of this cause we are, we're exploring right now. Like, is it the best form? And we think it actually is still a really great, I mean, obviously it's a great forum for conversation.

Like we're having one now. The way that we execute that we're, we're examining To make sure that we're delivering the best product to help demonstrate and call out the pieces of a, of a conversation that are compassionate, because for us, it's super natural, at least in the podcast form. And many conversations is pretty natural, but it's not for everybody.

So they may not be picking up on all the nuances. So we're, we're thinking about how we deliver that

Keith Richardson: [00:34:41] and taking that before your next question, because this just popped into my head for the first time late breaking news of Keith's inner monologue. There is a tie to the journey that we've been on in this podcast.

More in common for us, as we have recently discussed has very much been about our exploration of conversation, which has allowed us to build this platform for consulting and all these other things. But it has been very personal in this journey of practicing more and practicing these things and putting these things into place where we're now at a place where it's like, oh, we have not done any of this for our audience. Not, not none of it. And so now we're trying to pivot to say, how can we take this personal journey and give an audience what they could use versus it just being us about having great, awesome conversations, make it, their journey, that inner. So going back to that inner piece of more like, that's what it is a helpful for you to build your journey, to having more compassionate conversation

Brandon Stover: [00:35:48] Yeah,

Keith Richardson: [00:35:48] worked for us.

Brandon Stover: [00:35:49] one of the what have been some of the outcomes or results of you guys demonstrating these conversations on your podcasts? I read in one of the articles that was written up about you guys that an early episode resulted in a sibling reconciliation after many years of not speaking. So what sort of things have these conversations done for other,

Rodney Campbell: [00:36:10] That was the exact one I was going to go to. That was a, I think it was our first one of our first episodes for sure. Second episode. There's been a couple other moments like that. One really cool thing is my mom listens to every episode and she's like, I get to learn something new about you. I

I pretty much straight after college.

Like I moved away and, you know, life moves. And so we, I don't, I wouldn't say we talk as much as either of us would like, and so it's kind of a view into who I am now, but then. I keep saying, it's like, it's been helpful for us. I've explored my, my past through the podcast and that's opened things to her that she never knew.

So that's been really cool also other there've been a couple of examples of family members and friends and even strangers just saying, like I had a conversation that I would have never had with somebody because I had just listened to your podcasts. Like the day before, earlier that day, and somebody said something that I normally would have just judged and I asked them a question instead, and then it went to a conversation and I learned something.

I was like, oh,

Keith Richardson: [00:37:17] Yeah, no, I think that's, it's kind of it's most consistently has been that reminder to others. Like, okay, I can, I can have this conversation. Might take me a little bit longer. It might, but I can be thoughtful and deliberate about it and go at it with this in mind. And it's been really cool feedback.

Brandon Stover: [00:37:39] Yeah, I think you know, starting a podcast, it's a slow build and something, I wanted to, something that resonated with me, Rodney, that you just mentioned. My mom also listens to every one of my podcasts and she struggles with PTSD. And so it has been a way for her to like, stay connected with me. A guiding light for her.

And one of the things, when I started the podcast, I had told my wife, like, I really want this to help people. And if, even if I only help one listener, that's fantastic. Well, I'd been doing the podcast for a year, year and a half. And later on, my mom had told me like, oh yeah, I listened to your podcast all the time.

I listened to it sometimes, you know, in the evening when I can't sleep. And I know that's when she struggles the most, because she's having flashbacks and whatnot, why she's sleeping and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I was like, I really am helping one person, even if it's just my mom. You know, I hope that it helps other people, but it was an amazing thing to hear the impact that a podcast can have.

Rodney Campbell: [00:38:41] Yeah. I mean, if you're going to help any one person, that's the one, like there's

Brandon Stover: [00:38:45] for sure.

Keith Richardson: [00:38:46] My mind doesn't even listen.

Rodney Campbell: [00:38:51] Man that's that's I almost tear up on that. Like that's, that's like thanks for sharing that, Brandon. Yeah.

Brandon Stover: [00:38:56] Yeah, absolutely.

Rodney Campbell: [00:38:57] from a personal side real quick, like there has been I've learned that I'm a conversationalist and they, Keith is as well. And one of the things that we get from guests a lot is that they really enjoy having the opportunity to have the depth of conversation that we have over the hour, hour, 15 minutes.

And what I think, you know, back to the depression and the loneliness epidemic, we're not connecting, you know a lot of this for us about human connection to compassion is just what it's going to enable for the world. Why it's going to heal the world because we're going to better connect. We just want to be heard.

We need purpose and we want to be heard all the rest of it. It's just like details

Brandon Stover: [00:39:40] what's the process that you guys go through with your podcasts in order to create that space, that people can be vulnerable. And how do you start building that connection? So people open up for that.

Keith Richardson: [00:39:53] I mean, it's interesting and you've been through it. It's not much right. Because what we know we do well, And this is, this is why we want to give people what we have. It's not just our relationship, like to just sit down and have an open, honest conversation with somebody where you can ask questions, they can be vulnerable, you can be vulnerable and you can connect.

It's it's, it's not that difficult. It just requires doing a few things. And if you can do those few things consistently, you will eventually just get better at them. And then you will consistently have better connections and conversations. And you'll still go through all those struggles of Pinkston, struggle of you know, hesitation.

But at the end of the day, like we, we just sit down and I don't know. We, we like people and we

Rodney Campbell: [00:40:45] listen, see, this is funny. Like he, what he's illustrating is the challenge with like, everybody has a skill everybody's got like at least one skill that they can do better than probably most people. This.

Collectively, and probably individually are skills like this conversation space. And so the more process when key says, like it's born out of like our experience, like is literally born out of having all of these conversations and breaking down. Like one of my mentors on the podcast told us that he had been sexually abused as a child that almost broke my brain for many reasons, but we started breaking down, like, how did that happen?

And like, not, not the abuse, but how did he end up sharing that publicly with us on a podcast he had just met Keith that it was brand new. Like you don't typically that's not shared with a stranger. And he was not in a place where he was public publicizing. This, this was the first time he had shared it outside of the walls of like his most intimate relationship now.

And so as we started breaking down, what's happening in these conversations, what are we doing? How are we showing up? That's where meeting people, where they are being open to listen more removing assumption, engaging with curiosity. Like that's, that's where it came from. Like, we didn't make it out. Like we were watching what we were doing and realize, oh, shit like that.

There are things we're doing. It's just natural to us. to everybody out there, like anybody who's like, I don't know what I could like do I hate what I'm doing. I hate my job and I don't know what I could go do. Like, there's a thing that you do really well and you do it so well, you don't even know you're doing it

Brandon Stover: [00:42:36] Hmm, let's talk a little bit about the beginning of this journey and you know, where these skills started meeting each other. Both of you went to Purdue from different backgrounds, but always being able to, you know, have these deep discussions with each other and your podcasts began by starting to talk about the topics of race.

So can you share how you two started having these race conversations coming from different backgrounds?

Keith Richardson: [00:43:02] Well, I mean,

Rodney Campbell: [00:43:05] Keith was the white dude that always hung out with black dudes. I think he's just always felt more comfortable around white dudes. Who knows why? I have theories, but it was never really a conversation except for the one time where he dropped the bomb or we were playing Madden with a friend and we

Keith Richardson: [00:43:23] were like episode one of the podcast.

Yeah.

Rodney Campbell: [00:43:25] Shooting it. We were like, what? But like he was already accepted in the group. So this is back to that compassion for people you like about like you like, like he was already part of the group. So we laughed it off. It was like that's the homie Keith. We didn't actually have a whole bunch of race conversations.

We'd had a lot of conversations about politics, finance and gay marriage and religion, like all of the, I think it helps that we don't let we, we're not big fans of small talk. So we kind of just jumped in. Yeah, I don't, I

Keith Richardson: [00:43:57] don't know. Yeah. I, I, there was nothing like we would have these conversations in the gym while working out.

Right.

Rodney Campbell: [00:44:03] Cause that's okay. The place where you talk about religion.

Brandon Stover: [00:44:05] Yeah.

Rodney Campbell: [00:44:06] What do you think about God broke that up?

Keith Richardson: [00:44:10] You know, when we were in the car or it just naturally happened and I, I have vivid memories or emotional memories, not so much cognitive detailed memories of when we would talk about gay marriage.

And at the time, you know, Rodney coming from a. Catholic conservative background was, and this is in 2002. Right? Thank you. So this is right at the height for those who were there and remember, or those who have read a book when there was a national vote on gay marriage that was shot down about 70%. It wasn't national state by state, but most states voted on it.

Only a couple states passed it. It was very much culturally unaccepted. Right? And so it was a conversation. I have always been on the side of like, let it be right. Like if two people want to get married, let them get married. There's been nuance in that position over time, but that's generally the, and so we would have that conversation and the emotional memories I have vivid, the re have, are never seeing Rodney and thinking what an ass. What a shitty dude, right? Sure. I'd be like, why would he think that? But I also understood where it was coming from and we would have that conversation over time. And then I remember we, I was in Rochester. I had moved away from Purdue and we were on the phone having this conversation. And he said something that demonstrated to me that he was changing his position on it.

And I was like, wait, should we talk about this again? And cause we just, and, and his position evolved over time. It wasn't because I tried to change his mind. It wasn't because I forced him. We just had conversations. He hadn't life experiences. And he had things that changed his mind over time. And yeah, so it was just always rooted in that idea of he's not malicious, he's not out here saying I hate all gay people and that we should beat them up and let's go, yeah.

I attack a parade. He had a thought in a position on something that wasn't indicative of the core of who I knew him to be. And it was just a reflection of the thoughts and his background. So understanding that and getting to that place, that's just always what we'd done.

Rodney Campbell: [00:46:45] Oh, well, on the gay marriage thing, I think it's, those conversations were really important. They ended up being super important because through them I did start having questions, challenging what I was taught and what I actually thought.

And then it culminated with my sister, my younger sister, actually coming out to me first and a family where there's probably a couple of other people she could, but she felt safest. And, you know, I was pro I guess I wasn't very vocally, like anti-gay marriage, but like, I was not for it. And so, but she felt comfortable enough to come to me and we had already been having these conversations and I was just like, huh, like that, that kind of like tip the scales, like, oh, well I know you you're amazing.

Like, huh, okay. Like I've already been challenging, like thinking about all this and then boom. It just kinda, you know, it just kind of worked out the way it was supposed to, I guess. And then we go into so race. So even, you know, back to the original question, that's what kinda got us into this podcast with Colin Kaepernick kneeling for the Anthem.

We didn't see it from the same places. Keith hit me up and was like, what do you think about this? And I had to, I didn't, oddly enough, I didn't know what was happening. I had to look up what was hanging on. Colin Kaepernick was sitting for the Anthem and then eventually started kneeling. He was, he was protesting police brutality and how black and brown people are treated in this country specifically with law enforcement, but some other things too.

And so we came back and I was like, yeah, like I, I get it. I'm a, I'm a black dude in America, man. Like I, and I'm not saying that I speak for all black dudes in America. When I say that this is something that I think can be confusing for people. But for me, like I'm a BI dude in America who is, who feels very nervous when police officers pull up behind me.

Like just point blank. They just, this is how I feel. So I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like I'm for it. I support it. And he's like, yeah, I don't get it. It's disrespectful. I don't like it. He plays a game. He shouldn't be bringing us to the game. And like all of those things, like all of them felt like daggers in my heart.

Why would you say that? Like, do you want me to give you a by the cops, like what's happening? And like, this is what so that's like in my head, but my response was like, well, why do you think that, like, w w why is it disrespectful? And we had a conversation and that conversation ended like, at the time, I have no idea.

I don't think I knew how you felt Keith, but I knew that we had carried it through far enough to be like, all right, we're at a peaceful place with this conversation.

Keith Richardson: [00:49:29] We should start a podcast

Rodney Campbell: [00:49:33] to, to demonstrate how we have hard conversations to teach other people how to have hard conversations. That's where it started.

And it's evolved into just having conversations from realizing that the reason that we were able to do that is because the compassion, which, you know, one of the things I think. So I have a very, like, I have a Catholic and Christian background. Keith does not. think a big part of this is like dispel. Like what is compassion, dispelling? Like, is, is it, is it a religious tradition? Is it just about love? Because it's not typically something that you're going to talk about.

Let's say not typically it is absolutely not something you're going to talk about in a business setting. Like, how is this going to make my business better? You might talk about it in a relationship, but I don't actually, I've been at therapist and I've never heard of therapist say anything about compassion, honestly with the ones that I've talked to.

So we just see it as such a, such an important factor, but like,

Keith Richardson: [00:50:27] you know, I was going to say taking off of that, like that conversation is one of those. Like at the time we, we didn't know it was compassion, Rodney, probably for two years. Has had been saying like, compassion is something within what we do.

Like, we just didn't know what it was. But he had a feeling and we just couldn't figure it out. Now we have, but when I, when he tells that story, like you ask, what does a compassionate conversation look like? That's what it looks like, Rodney going through all of these feelings. And at no point did he empathize with my position?

In fact, he probably didn't feel compassion for me having that position, but he showed me compassion by asking a question and letting me share my song. He actually like, he listened to me. Go on. He asked a couple of questions to dig in deeper. Never did he interrupt and give me his point of view in a forceful, angry way, even though that's what he was feeling.

So once I was exhausted with what I had to say, I was then able to go to the original intent of me bringing it up to him and asking him what he felt about it. And so then he gave me all of the points that he made and in that he had already given me the platform. So I now am able to express it towards him.

I was then able to gain empathy for his position because I think his position was. Made more sense to me at the end of it, then my original position. And so it moved me, but his intent was not to move me. His intent was simply to answer the questions that I was asking. And in that we came to a place where it's like, oh, I get it.

Now I have more information. So I can formulate a better position or a better opinion that I believe in. And it wasn't because Rodney told me to, it was just because he gave me data points that I hadn't considered. And we did it in a way that was non-judgemental and was not rooted in emotional empathy.

It was literally the opposite of

Rodney Campbell: [00:52:51] emotional empathy. There was no chance you're going to feel on that.

Keith Richardson: [00:52:55] And so. But we could still express and give compassion to one another and Outback. I

Rodney Campbell: [00:53:00] get annoyed, like even thinking about it. I still get a

Keith Richardson: [00:53:05] little like, ah, that's good. I get so jacked up because it was such an awesome example of compassionate conversation.

Brandon Stover: [00:53:11] Yep. One thing that I want to touch on before we go further in this story is. Even during this conversation, as you're explaining it you were using labels to help our listeners understand your background. You mentioned Rodney, you know, growing up Catholic, being a conservative family, and Rodney, you even mentioned, you're like, I'm a black guy in America.

You use this label to kind of summarize who you were as a person, and then deliver that to our listeners. So they get a little bit of an understanding. But I think part of the problem when we have conversations with each other is we're having sometimes a conversation with the label instead of the actual person and what it sounds like as you guys move past those labels to actually understand the person, you know, Rodney, and your example along the gay marriage part, like use.

You're a family member rather than, you know, somebody that was gay instead of that label. And so you were more able to understand that position of gay marriage because you saw the person not the label. So I was wondering if you guys could expand on seeing past the label and seeing the person instead.

Rodney Campbell: [00:54:27] I mean the most basic example I can give is if I cut somebody off on the highway it's cause I'm late. It's because I have something to do. It's cause I wasn't paying attention. I'm, you know, if I, if I realize I did it, I might be like, oh man, my band, like try and get their attention or flashlights or something.

But it's not a big deal. Like I did it, you know, there's a reason somebody else does it a whole big, not paying attention. Like they get the label. I don't get the label like, right. Like it's, that's, that's probably the most simple example I can get it. I think the family member thing that's you know, you get a pass you're you're, you're close to me.

I know you. I don't know them so they don't get a pass. And, and then not to say that it's really about giving a pass. I think Keith actually illustrated really nicely in the last part, in his last answer. Like even if he would have never changed his mind, I would've still been curious about where he was coming from.

I wouldn't have agreed with him. I don't have to agree with him. But I was able to still be kind, even with him. No, Coming to my side or having my view. So the label,

Keith Richardson: [00:55:36] like, cause I, I guess,

Rodney Campbell: [00:55:38] huh, I never really thought about this is an interesting question. Cause I never thought about cause like I never labeled him like, oh, he's a, yeah.

I mean there were no Trump's supporters at that time, but like, I guess, you know, I could have been all you're a Trump supporter. You don't, you don't agree with how I feel about the Kaepernick thing. Like, or you're a fan of slave. Like I don't even know what I would have labeled him because I didn't even think to go there and label them.

But I think it's a very important part too. Cause when I will juxtapose it with, when it breaks down in my life in the worst of ways I do label, like if I'm, if I'm in a heated moment with my wife and I say something, I don't mean it usually comes with. Or

Keith Richardson: [00:56:23] Abel's labels absolutely create an opportunity for us versus them.

It is just the cognitive function. Some of the most fascinating psychological studies are sociological studies of, then you put a group together. No one knows anything about anybody else you give half of them, a red flag, half of them, blue flag, and within an hour they hate each other. It's just, it's fascinating.

And we do this with our sports teams. Oh, you're a Steelers fan. I hate you, right? No, it's like we can make light of labels, but the reality, the importance of labels is that the labels are, how many of us identify. Right. And some of the best conversation re conversational work that bridges divides roots on this idea that through our differences, we can find our similarities.

So it's important that we highlight and acknowledge each other's differences, because what you're saying is I see you and in turn, I want you to see me. So I'm creating a label that you will then say, okay, I have something to go off of, right? If we stay ambiguous, if we stay existential, which we're really good at doing and not give that, Hey, I'm a white guy from New Hampshire who grew up 40 minutes, north of Boston diehard Patriots fan.

All I'm giving you is a map. To access some of your simple cognitive processes. Otherwise you're trying to figure it out and we don't do nuance well. But through those differences, we need to be better individually at saying that is not who you are. Right. And we do that well with our relationships.

That is us. That's ingroup, outgroup, psychology. That's us versus them like, oh, you're in, I know you now. And it, this is why going back to Rodney's road rage example, why there has been past examples of telling yourself a story, maybe they're on their way to the hospital. So you're giving yourself a personal connection to someone that you won't gain a personal connection to and in turn, then can access the emotion of empathy or compassion better.

Right. And then see them in a more positive. Our take on this is that, especially when you talk about removing assumptions, but our take on this, as you can give people compassion without having to even go the emotional way. And in turn, we'll have a more positive view on things just because you're giving yourself and that other person, a chance beyond the label that you have now judged

Brandon Stover: [00:59:04] Yeah. As fathers, what are you guys teaching your children about human connection and what type of world do you hope to create for them?

Rodney Campbell: [00:59:14] we're really fortunate for our daughters. Some of our friends run a daycare and the it's just been an amazing experience because they really focus on the on self-regulation and on emotional emotional intelligence before anything else and play as well. But the emotional intelligence side one of the biggest things is teaching.

I mean, my daughter, my oldest is four. My youngest is about to be two and just teaching them that they can take a deep breath, like when they feel any kind of way, overly excited overly angry. Something's frustrating. But you know, Daniel tiger says it bait best, take a deep breath and count to four.

Those that, that, and, and, and it reminds me to use it when I get frustrated with my daughter or my daughters and do it in front of them so they can see it. And also reminding her that she can do hard things because it'll be really easy to give up in conversations because it gets hard and it gets difficult.

And Yeah. So the emotional, like the back, this whole thing, like teaching them that they can regulate where they are. I think the bigger goal for me is to teach them the constructs with which they live in Western society. And hopefully break that down by showing them south America, showing them Asia, showing them Australia, showing them if different cultures that look at things differently so that they can see that this exists here.

It doesn't exist there. So it doesn't have to exist as it is. They get to choose how they exist within it. And that's my goal. I hope I w we'll do this in like 20 years and see if I,

Keith Richardson: [01:00:52] yeah, it's it's Rodney and I share similar High-level ideology on, on parenting. I, I think the two things, two things that I try to teach them now is that, and this is really hard for a four and a two year old.

Cause they're very, very self selfish and self-oriented, and it's just the reality of children and the brain development, but trying to teach my four year old, especially it's like this isn't, it's not all about her, that she operates within an ecosystem of other people. You don't have to buy into it.

And like, this is something that I really try to it's like, you don't have to buy into it. If you honestly have a justification to block this trend for you, they pitch it. Let's go now she's four. She does it sometimes. She's definitely really good at making, making an argument and cause I want her to have a similar outcome.

And then like, I want her to realize that this, this world we live in is littered with social constructs that have been defined for millennia based on other people and a power dynamic. Like I want her to feel like she can capture the essence of her life and do it vigorously forever. And so I focused on, on that and emotional awareness.

I think I've said this for awhile. If my children ultimately get for me that I believe in them and that I love them and teach them how to manage their emotions and existence. They need nothing else. They need nothing else. They will cap. They will conquer the world of life. They may not be millionaires.

They may live on the streets, but they will conquer their life because they will believe they will know that someone loved them. Unconditionally and that symbol, someone believed in them wholeheartedly and that they know how to take a breath and then will I let school teach them ones and zeros and, and history, as long as they're teaching a balance of, of legitimate history as they get older, I'll probably start chiming in a little bit there.

Brandon Stover: [01:03:08] Yeah. And if you want a VOC to the education system, definitely check out there more in common podcasts as I was a guest on there and ranted on about the education system.

Keith Richardson: [01:03:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Rodney Campbell: [01:03:18] We will get stuff coming there.

Keith Richardson: [01:03:20] Yeah,

Brandon Stover: [01:03:20] But before I get to my last question, is there a call to action you would like to leave our listeners with.

Rodney Campbell: [01:03:25] Check out our website more in common ent.com. There, you can find both our podcasts and our consulting practice kind of bifurcated the website. If you have any questions. If you're curious about any of this, that is around compassion how we consult based on compassion to make truly inclusive environments hit us up.

We have contact@moreincommonpod.com. It's on the website. That's why I send you there. All our DMS are open, so you can have this there.

Keith Richardson: [01:03:55] I would, I would also add, like, if anything, be curious, like, just be curious about the person across from you and be, you know, if you're having a conversation and they say something that you think is stupid.

One of my favorite examples that I will forever remember as a friend of mine was having a conversation, white friend, With a black friend of his and they were walking down the street and he saw a white guy on a porch and he called him a porch monkey. Now, if you know anything about that phrase, that is an incredibly racially divisive phrase.

And generally isn't used towards white people on a porch. And this black individual turned to him knowing who he was and simply asked them, do you, do you know what that means? And they ended up having a conversation about it. And my friend never said it again. Right? He didn't, his friend did not say up racist.

Can't be friends with them. No, he embraced his curiosity and simply asked a question and that's, that's your call to ask action. Ask a question.

Brandon Stover: [01:05:04] Well, my final question is how can we push the world to evolve?

Keith Richardson: [01:05:09] Hm. That's a good

question. I would say, and this is Keith. If you haven't recognized my voice by now, compassion is a biologically evolved characteristics, similar to happiness, similar to anger, fear, anxiety, joy. So realize that if we could all realize that compassion, isn't just something that we either have, or don't have, like, we all have it.

We just have learned not to use it in for one reason or another. So if we can get back to a place and I'm not talking from a religious context, like literally just clinically giving more compassion, we will evolve exponentially and quickly because we're already tapping into our evolution.

I will

Rodney Campbell: [01:06:09] say the world's going to evolve. Like we don't need to do anything. What is important from my perspective, is that how your world changes and changes, hopefully for the better is going to be. Very much based on how you see things. As Keith mentioned earlier, our minds are, as I like to call my relational engine, everything, everything that we see is based on other things that we know or that we think we know if we can help people have true compassion for themselves and truly love themselves to the point where they can question themselves unendingly and seeking the truth of the depth of their being their essence. They can meet other people, honestly, where they are. They can do it with curiosity. Then our individual worlds will be better and the world will continue to do what it does and we'll do it. We'll we'll.

Brandon Stover: [01:07:10] Wonderful. Keith, Rodney. Thank you guys so much for coming on the show. It was such a pleasure chatting with you, both.

Keith Richardson: [01:07:16] Brandon, it's always a pleasure connecting with you, my man. Thank you.

Rodney Campbell: [01:07:19] Thank you, man. This has been fun.

Brandon Stover: [01:07:22] Thank you for listening to the evolve. Podcasts  links to everything we discussed today are available in the show. Notes. Transcripts are also available in the show notes and everything can be viewed on our website at evolve. The doc world that's evolve the.world.

My one ask for you is to share this episode with others. If you know someone who is interested in social impact, social entrepreneurship, or just making a difference in the world, please share this episode. The challenges in our world need all of those who can contribute to existing solutions or create entirely new ones. so please share the show with those kind intelligent people who are just like you until next time my friend keep evolving.

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